As the title says...

I am trying to wrap my head around how the genetics of bristlenose colour and fin length works. I am slowly getting an idea but i am missing a few bits of data that i need to complete my picture.

so i am appealing to all the breeders who have crossbred - either by accident or on purpose, to let me know what the outcome has been of these crossses

Calico (marble) x Common

Calico x albino

and this is for the people outside Aus

Super red x common

blue x common

super red x Calico

Super red x blue

I seem to have a good idea of how the genetics of the fins work as i have my own data for that, or at least i am working on it do you know how much of a pain it is collecting all the babies from a spawn to look at their fins!

Thanks heaps for any help. I dont need to know exact numbers, just a rough guess as to how many of each morph resulted from each cross.

Doug

Hi Doug, I'm a relative newbie so can't help but I am very interested to read any replies you get - also, does it matter if they cross breed?

They are all the same species so there is no harm in corssing them. There are those out there that argue that they should be kept as pure lines however, i think that is dangerous for the species, as breeding for specific recessive triats can cause other issues unforseen. I cross mine on a regular basis, both because i am trying ti identify the genetic working of the fin and colour genes as well as I think it keeps the fish healthier and stronger to keep the genetic pool mixed

what do you mean as a blue

I have seen a few of these floating around. I am not sure if they are capable of corssing with common bristlenose but i thought i would ask as we dont have then here in Aus and im trying to cover all my bases

http://www.bristlenoseworld.com/bristlenose-talk-f5/help-blue-ancistrusjari-ancistrus-t1489.htm

or

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=1680

Looking at the data now i would suggest they dont cross but im not sure so if anyone could lay this one to rest that would be great too

I had a spawn of a short fin golden albino male with a short fin L-144 female. the results were 100% brown. The spotting was larger on some as juveniles, giving them a brighter appearance, but still within the range of regular brown BN and the older they got the more standard looking brown they became.
I specified the type of albino because there is more than one type and the different types could possibly give different outcomes in crosses. The female L-144 was not the real species one, but the color morph of the common BN.

I am also trying to figure out how BN genetics work.

I don't have any super red yet, but I have most of the commonly available color morphs. So far normal brown, golden albino, calico, L-144 (the color morph not species) and I just picked up some brown long fin and what I hope will be the other type of albino; they have spots where my golden albinos do not.

I would suggest when you make color crosses to be as specific as possible as to type of albino etc. Note even the type of markings (spots, no spots more blotchy etc.) as this could make a difference in the outcome. Pattern does alter how a color will appear in other animals so it could in BN too.

Granted mood, diet, overall heath etc affect both color and pattern, but still some fish have distinct markings or a lack thereof.

What have you figured out so far?

I'm pretty confident that there are at least two types of albino on different loci, and that the golden albino and L-144 are on different loci. Also fairly confident that the golden albino is a simple recessive. It acts that way for me and seems to for others. Not sure about the other albino.

I suspect (this is only a guess) that long fin is dominant rather than recessive, but that like albino there is more than one type. The long fin that most of us associate with the term has long flowing fins, and other has longer fins than a short fin, but not as long as regular long fin. I haven't a clue how this one is inherited and I think it's been crossed with the other long fins in a lot of cases which could skews results, so I think fin length when doing crosses involving long fin has to be specified.

Genetics is not random, when you know how the traits are inherited and how they interact with one another it's fairly easy to produce what you want when you want it. I for one would like to be able to do that.

Amber, you seem to know your stuff

I think that you are correct about the albino morph being covered on 2 or more loci. this is the only way to explain the L144 as true albinos have red eyes. I guess i should have made that clear.

I havent really been able to figure out too much so far as i'm only just starting to get into it. From what i have observed in my breeding i am guessing that longfin is recesive but i dont have enough data to conclude that. I am still waiting on a few crosses of my own to mature enought so i can check their fins. my first spawn of longfin x shortfin gave almost perfect results but the second threw that out the window so i need to check a few more before i call it. I also suspect that there is something else going on here as i do come across some with long-ish fins but i wouldnt call them a longfin.

I actually suspect that the colouring of bristlenose is covered at several different loci, as a result of interbreeding between closely related species. so to figure it out is going to take a massive effort and in reality will prob only be worked out by doing some sequencing...and i hate sequencing DNA! Its so much more complicated that genotyping! but i figured that by checking out what other people have got from their crosses we might be able to build a picture.

Very interesting topic!

If it helps, I have crossed my a calico male and a common female with the result being 100% common brown but with a more 'caramel / cream' hue to the fry. Though the same male calico breeding with one of my calico females gave me 100% calico fry. I seperated the male and femal calico and the continued to throw 100% calico fry. This had gone on for about 5 spawns. I sold the pair and bought a group of young long-fin calico's that had their first spawn 4 days ago!! So we'll see if the batch turns out 100% calico long-fin or wether there is others in the mix...

Will report my findings in a few weeks

Pete

excellent, thats exactly the kind of info I'm after.

Cheers buddy!

like amber says theirs two types of albino if not three.
first cultivated form is the more yellow mottle type.
form 2 is more orange with small spots on the head area only.
but i believe the third one must be from a crossing of the two and get an inbetween coloure of yellow and orange ie lighter orange with small spots all over the body. ive done this cross.will get some pics up i also believe that the L144 coloure came from the form two type of albino jmo
will get some pics up.
as for crossing long fins ive bred a short fin male albino to a long fin albino female and got a complete mix of long short and some inbetween.????

If a common bn breeds with an albino do you get a 50/50 split on the fry? or is it dependent on what the male is?

thats exactly what we are trying to find out here mate. If the breeding system is simple then it may be that easy, but i doubt it as i suspect the is al least two different forms of albino./..the albino gene and the yellow gene and i suspect they actually act seperatly of each other. for example making it possible to havee an albino L144 if you get what i mean (same colour, but red eyes).

In general, from what i have seen so far, common x albino will result in mostly common fry. I would love for it to be a 1:3 ration albino: common as that would make life so easy but its often not